K. Jackson-Klage gegen AEG- Der Prozess- Diskussion zum Prozess

[Senfi0606]

Hallo Senfi...ich weiß, hat vllt. keinen Sinn, aber ich würde dich gerne von deiner harten Haltung gegenüber Michaels Schmerzen abringen.

Ich zweifel doch überhaupt nicht an, das er Schmerzen hatte.
Sicher wird er auch Medikamente gebraucht haben.
Nur das sein jahrelanger Medikamentenmissbrauch nur auf diese Brandwunde
reduziert wird,
das zweifel ich an.
Nur weil einige nicht wahr haben wollen, dass es eben doch Missbrauch war.

[ulla]

Nur weil einige nicht wahr haben wollen, dass es eben doch Missbrauch war.



Und woher weist du das ?

Bin immer wieder erstaunt mit welcher Überzeugung von manchen ihre Meinung vertreten wird, ob wohl keiner zu 100% etwas weis, wissen kann !!!

[Christine3110]

Ich zweifel doch überhaupt nicht an, das er Schmerzen hatte.
Sicher wird er auch Medikamente gebraucht haben.
Nur das sein jahrelanger Medikamentenmissbrauch nur auf diese Brandwunde
reduziert wird,
das zweifel ich an.
Nur weil einige nicht wahr haben wollen, dass es eben doch Missbrauch war.

Selbst WENN man es nur auf die Brandwunden REDUZIEREN WÜRDE, was ja nicht der Fall ist, so könnte ich es verstehen.
Er hatte wie wir alle wissen, noch einige andere Blessuren , mit denen er umzugehen hatte.

Außerdem haben doch die Experten ausgesagt, dass er in den letzten Jahren -VOR TII- nichts "missbraucht" hat.



Debbie sagte aus, dass sie ihm die Kinder damals niemals überlassen hätte, wenn er ein Abhängiger gewesen wäre.

Er sei ein kleiner Kontrollfreak gewesen u. habe es von daher gehaßt "high" zu sein.

[Mysterious]

Nur weil einige nicht wahr haben wollen, dass es eben doch Missbrauch war.



Und woher weist du das ?

Bin immer wieder erstaunt mit welcher Überzeugung von manchen ihre Meinung vertreten wird, ob wohl keiner zu 100% etwas weis, wissen kann !!!

Eben, die Aussagen zu den Kernpunkten Mißbrauch, und wenn, dauerhaft oder nur zeitweise kann ja noch nicht mal im Umfeld Michaels wirklich beantwortet werden.
Also können wir erst Recht nicht von einem dauerhaften, exessiven Mißbrauch sprechen.

[rip.michael]

mh ich kanns ja auch kaum glauben, aber sie sagte "air gun" ... Luftgewehr/pistole
...

Vielleicht kann ich was zur klärung beitragen:
Es gibt dieses teil nicht nur bei StarTrek, sondern auch ganz real, guckst du wiki.
Oder hier noch was zu dem med. hyposprayer.

[bliss]

Ach Mensch, ich bin grad wirklich frustriert und traurig. Habe von Freitag bis jetzt nun nachgelesen und mir dreht sich alles im Kopf. Das ist alles so ein Sumpf und irgendwie hat jeder irgendwie Recht von wegen Michael`s Verantwortung und die der Ärzte. Und immer wissen wir nur einen Bruchteil von allem und können nur spekulieren. Und all das zu lesen und trotzdem nicht zu wissen was nun wirklich passiert ist und wer was und warum und weshalb gemacht hat! Ich könnt grad wirklich alles hinschmeißen und mir die Ohren bzw. Augen zuhalten. Ich frag mich manchmal selber warum ich mir das alles durchlese, ganz egal jetzt aus welchen Quellen. Das zieht einen doch nur alles runter und man wird ganz wirr im Kopf und weiß nicht mehr was man über Michael denken soll. Sorry, dass ich mich da jetzt so ausgekotzt habe aber das musste jetzt mal raus. Geht es euch da nicht manchmal auch so, dass ihr das alles nicht mehr hören mögt?

[rip.michael]

Ja @bliss ... es ist manchmal schwierig, die ganzen aussagen nachzuvollziehen + die gedanken, die jeder so ganz persönlich für sich daraus entwickelt. Ich komme mir auch manchmal vor, als ob ich zwischen allen stühlen sitze mitsamts meiner eigenen sicht der dinge. Hab festgestellt, dass ich auch zu diesem thema nicht umhinkomme, zu versuchen, mehrere standpunkte einzunehmen und die dinge unterschiedlich auf mich wirken zu lassen, so vollkommen oder unvollkommen sie auch sein mögen. Aber auch das verlassen des standpunkts, der einem am nächsten steht und draufsicht aus neuer position bringt nicht mehr licht ins ungewisse, bestenfalls ein paar einsichten, möglicherweise blick auf die eigene einfältigkeit.
Ist manchmal, als ob man ein spiegelkabinett betritt, das alles zeigt ... nur nicht den unfehlbaren weg nach draussen.

[Senfi0606]

Habe ich gerade im anderen AEG-Thread gefunden.
Aus der Aussage von Debbie Rowe:

sagte Debbie Rowe, dass sie Michael Jackson davon überzeugen konnte, seine Tour frühzeitig zu beenden und
sich zwecks Medikamentenentzug in eine Klinik einzuweisen zu lassen.

Stimmt das wirklich so?
War es nicht Liz Taylor, die ihn sogar selbst aus Mexiko die Klinik gebracht hat??

[Memphis]

kenne ich auch so mit liz taylor!
ich will nicht sagen, dass rowe lügt....aber ich glaube ihr in letzter zeit immer weniger.

[greatfan]

Geht es euch da nicht manchmal auch so, dass ihr das alles nicht mehr hören mögt?

...ja, geht es...da hilft nur, nicht mehr hinzuhören, abschalten ...............

[cori79]

Vielleicht haben da mehrere auf Michael eingewirkt und ein jeder will es sich nun auf die Fahnenstange schreiben und behauptet sie haben ihn zu der Rehamaßnahme überredet.
Ich kann Michaels Kampf mit den Medikamenten, die entstandene Sucht, seine Verzweiflung nach Ruhe, Schlaf, aber auch weiter kreativ zu sein usw immer besser verstehen. Ich denke ein Grund mit warum er sich vom touren verabschieden wollte.Er hatte sich so viel besser zurückziehen können, mehr Ruhe gehabt, Zeit mit seinen Kindern verbringen können und der Fokus wäre nicht mehr so in der Öffentlichkeit gewesen. Vielleicht hätte er die Medikamente dann auch nicht mehr gebraucht.
Ich hätte es ihm so gegönnt.

[rip.michael]

@Senfi, leider weisst dein post nicht aus, wen du da zitiert hast.

Dr. Finkelstein z.b. hat sich in der depo dazu geäussert, hab die entsprechenden absätze blau gemacht:

[I]Jacksons vs AEG - Day 44 – July 8 2013 – Summary

Katherine and Rebbie Jackson is at court.

Dr. Stuart Finkelstein Deposition Video

Dr. Finkelstein said he worked at Cerritos Family Clinic until 2 years ago with his ex-wife Petra Wong, now works at Stuart Finkelstein, MD. Dr. Finkelstein is a specialist in internal and addiction medicine. He described his experience and residency to the jury. He is a leader in treating addiction for over 20 years and he said he considers himself an expert. (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein was hired to work on the Dangerous Tour in 1993. He said he was in Bangkok, MJ performed a concert. After he performed, Dr. Finkelstein said he was requested to go to MJ's hotel room. (ABC7)

Boyle: Who hired you for Dangerous Tour? Dr. Finkelstein: Marcel Avram B: What was your role? Dr: To be the physician for the crew (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein said he was not hired to treat the artist. But in Bangkok, he was called by security. "He said you need to go to the principal." the doctor recalled. Dr. Finkelstein: He appeared to be in pain, I was put on the phone with his treating physician in Los Angeles, Dr. Alan Metzger. Dr Metzger said MJ was had severe headache, was in a lot of pain. Dr Finkelstein said he didn't remember if he was told what medicine to use. Dr. Finkelstein said he tried to give him a shot but his butt was so abscessed the needle almost bent. "I thought it was not safe," he said. Dr. Finkelstein administered morphine instead. In 1993, the doctor said he was not an expert in addiction. Boyle: But you were spending half of your time in addiction medicine? Dr. Finkelstein: I knew what I was doing and I was qualified, licensed. Dr. Finkelstein: I spent the next 24 hours in his room intermittently administering medication 'til MJ was capable going on stage in Bangkok. The doctor said he administered morphine and IV fluids. MJ was conscious and speaking. The doctor said they were watching 3 Stooges and having squirt gun fights. They talked about growing up in Encino on Hayvenhurst. Boyle: You became confident he was capable of going on tour? Dr Finkelstein: Bad question,I administered medicine until he could go on stage. Dr. Finkelstein watched MJ on stage and said he was able to perform. The second concert in Bangkok was postponed for one day. The doctor said the publicist told him to go on CNN and say MJ put so much effort in the show and was dehydrated. (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein said MJ had an opiate problem, dependency. Dr. Finkelstein: MJ had 100 micro gram duragesic patch on and there were 2 ampules of Demerol that were sent to him with another crew member. The doctor said he had someone he felt that obviously had received a lot of medication in the past, had a high tolerance to medication. Dr Finkelstein: It was early in my training, but it was obviously a concern for me. Duragesic is also called Fentanyl, another opiate. Boyle: You testified about 2 ampules – what were you talking about, the ampules of Demerol? Dr. Finkelstein: We are talking about natural opiates and synthetic opiates. The patch, the medication is absorbed through the skin. The doctor said the ampules were given to him by the make artist, Karen Faye. They were for MJ. (ABC7)

Boyle: There were four factors that lead you to believe MJ was an opioid dependent? Dr. Finkelstein: Yes, the patch, 2 ampules of Demerol from Karen Faye, observation that MJ had a high tolerance and scarring on his buttocks. "He had obviously had multiple injections in his buttocks prior to coming to Bangkok," Dr. Finkelstein said. (ABC7)

Paul Gongaware used to be the road manager for Rick James, Dr. Finkelstein said. He and Gongaware used to go skiing together. Dr. Finkelstein said Gongaware called him to go on a rock tour in 1993. The doctor would be paid by the promoter. (ABC7)

The doctor said he postponed the Bangkok tour. "I think we are going to have a problem," Dr. Finkelstein told Gongaware. Dr. Finkelstein said he told Gongaware he didn't want to be a Doctor Nick. Doctor Nick was Elvis Presley's doctor. Dr. Finkelstein said Elvis had about 14 different drugs in his system when he died. "You don’t want to overdose a rock star and have a rockstar die on you," Dr. Finkelstein explained. (ABC7)

Dr Finkelstein: When I tried to administer the medication and his butt was abscessed, I tried to give promoters heads up there was a problem.He said he believed MJ had a drug problem. "But no one believed me," Dr. Finkelstein said. Dr. Finkelstein: I was not hired as an addiction specialist but a family doctor to come on tour. The doctor said they began believing him in Mexico City during the Dangerous Tour. (ABC7)

After Dr. Finkelstein treated MJ, an English doctor was brought in, Dr. Forecast. One day, Dr. Finkelstein said he returned from a pyramid trip and his suitcase with all the medication had been broken in to. Dr. Finkelstein said Dr. Forecast broke into his suitcase to get pain medications to give to MJ. Dr. Finkelstein said he wanted to detox MJ in Switzerland and go on tour. Dr. Forecast was the other doctor treating MJ. Dr. Finkelstein said he had enough medication for all 160 people going on tour, any scenario. (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein: The head powers got together. They called in Elizabeth Taylor to do an intervention and took MJ to a Hospital in London. Dr. Finkelstein said he didn't know exactly who the powers that be were. "He didn't collapse," Dr. Finkelstein said. "It seemed it was getting a harder and harder time to manage his pain." There was also a video deposition of MJ in Mexico City related to the Chandler child molestation case. The stress increased MJ's urge for opioids, Dr. Finkelstein said. Elisabeth Taylor personally went to Mexico City to deal with MJ. (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein said Dr. Forecast took care of the principal, Mr. Jackson. He does not know who was paying Dr. Forecast. (ABC7)

Finkelstein and Gongaware are friends, he said. Boyle: Did you discuss with Mr. Gongaware about MJ's opioid dependency? Dr Finkelstein: Yes (ABC7)


Dr. Finkelstein: I know that I administered pain medication one other time when Dr. Forecast was not available. "I saw Dr. Forecast administer pain medication in Mexico City during the deposition," Dr. Finkelstein said. Dr. Finkelstein said he and Dr. Forecast were in communications and Dr Forecast was concerned in being blamed for work done by previous docs. (ABC7)

Boyle: Is substance abuse a character flaw?
Dr. Finkelstein: No. I believe it to be either genetically pre-disposed, or people who get exposed to these chemicals their brain changes (ABC7)

"He was a sweetheart, kind, gentle, fun," Dr. Finkelstein said about MJ. "Based on my observation, he was kind to everyone." (ABC7)

Boyle: Gongware was aware of problems MJ was having? Dr. Finkelstein: Yes (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein said he and Dr. Forecast agreed that MJ needed an intervention and detox. (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein explained his name is out there as a "Rock Doc," so he gets call from show producers and promoters to work at concerts. (ABC7)

Dr Finkelstein testified Gongaware called him about two months prior to MJ's death and told him MJ was going to tour in London, wanted a doctor. Dr. Finkelstein said he was excited about it, wanted to be MJ's physician, had 5-10 conversations with Gongaware about it. Dr. Finkelstein said he asked if Gongaware knew whether MJ was clean. The answer was yes. The doctor explained he would not want to go on tour if MJ had drug problems. "I didn't want to be Dr. Nick," Dr. Finkelstein said. Gongaware told him MJ was clean and passed a physical exam for insurance. Dr. Finkelstein said he would charge $40,000/month, $10,000/week. He remembers Dr. Murray asking for a lot of money to go on tour. (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein said there are not lot of cases of Propofol dependency, since it is a drug that's really hard to get. He said the mortality rate in Propofol dependents is really high, about 80%. Most of the dependents are in the medical field. Dr. Finkelstein said people from all walks of live can become opioid dependent. (ABC7)

The doctor's brother, Bob Finkelstein, worked at Concerts West with Paul Gongaware. He knows Randy Phillips socially. (ABC7)
Dr. Finkelstein said there were not a lot of discussions about the tour, since he didn't get the job. "Michael wanted someone else," Dr. Finkelstein said Gongaware told him. "Gongaware was my friend, tried to get me the job, I didn't get it." (ABC7)

Kathryn Cahan, attorney for AEG, did cross examination Dr. Finkelstein said he would administer 50-100 mg of Demerol in MJ, on his buttocksThe doctor said there were several scars on MJ's buttocks, which led him to conclude MJ was dependent in opioids. Dr. Finkelstein said the Demerol was prescribed by Dr. Alan Metzger in the name of Karen Faye. The drug was not for her, though. Dr. Finkelstein said he gave MJ 10 mg of morphine. The usual starting dose is 2 -4 mg, but MJ had high tolerance to opioids. The doctor said he believed MJ was in pain every time the doctor administered him morphine. (ABC7)

Cahan asked Dr. Finkelstein is he ever administered Propofol to Michael Jackson. He answered no, laughing. Dr. Finkelstein said his interaction with MJ was very limited. Dr. Forecast was in charge of the artist. When other doctors, like Steve Hoefflin and Arnold Klein, would come to a concert to visit, the show would get delayed, Dr. Finkelstein said. "Everything was secretive," Dr. Finkelstein said, explaining seems like no one ever knew the whole story. "it was compartmentalized and people were separated and segregated," Dr. Finkelstein said. Dr. Klein -- would show up at concerts very frequently, Dr. Hoefflin came a couple of times, would spend the weekend, Dr. Finkelstein said. (ABC7)

Dr. Finkelstein was asked to treat MJ in Mexico City when Dr. Forecast wasn't around. MJ had back pain, Dr. Finkelstein gave him morphine. Dr Finkelstein said Narcan is antidote to opioids. He had it handy. "If I am going to administer medication I'm going to have a safety plan" (ABC7)


Dr. Finkelstein said he kept a journal of everything he did during the tour and he was backstage, his records were stolen. He said he left some records at his mom's house and purged MJ's record from 95 since he wasn't a patient for 7 years. (ABC7)
"Michael had a lot of pain, I administered a shot and left," Dr. Finkelstein said. (ABC7)

Finkelstein said he first suspected Jackson had a dependence on pain medications in 1993 while working on the "Dangerous" tour. He recounted spending 24 hours in the singer's hotel suite and administering morphine intravenously to deal with Jackson's pain.
He said he gave Jackson morphine during their first meeting because the singer's buttocks were scarred from previous unspecified treatments and he was concerned about giving an injection of the painkiller Demerol. He said he also noticed that Jackson appeared to have a high tolerance for morphine and had on a patch that administered another opiate drug. Finkelstein said he gave Jackson one other painkiller treatment before the "Dangerous" tour was halted after what he described as an intervention by Elizabeth Taylor and others in Mexico City. (AP)

Dr. Stuart Finkelstein said he was later asked by concert promoter AEG Live to act as Jackson's personal physician during the ill-fated "This Is It" tour in 2009 but wanted to know if Jackson was "clean." AEG executive Paul Gongaware said he didn't believe Jackson had any prescription drug issues, Finkelstein testified. Finkelstein said he and Gongaware had five to 10 conversations in 2009 about working on Jackson's "This Is It" shows. Finkelstein said he wanted $40,000 a month and was not hired. (AP)

So wie ich diese aussage verstehe, war nicht nur Liz Taylor in die intervention involviert.

[Brigitte 58]

und Liz hat Michael zu Klein gebracht, oder?

[Senfi0606]

@Senfi, leider weisst dein post nicht aus, wen du da zitiert hast.

Ist doch vollkommen unwichtig, wen ich zitiert habe,
sondern was ich zitiert habe ist relevant.
Auf dein Posting kann und will ich nicht eingehen,
weil es in englisch ist.
Ich gehe prinzipiell nur auf deutsche Postings ein.
In einem deutschen Forum ja auch völlig normal.
Fakt ist, dass ich nicht glaube, dass DR in Mexiko war und auf Michael eingewirkt hat.
Ich glaube auch nicht, dass DR 1993 schon so einen intensiven Kontakt zu Michael hatte,
um überhaupt Einfluss auf ihn zu nehmen.

[aurelia]

@Senfi0606

Wenn Du schreibst
"Ich gehe prinzipiell nur auf deutsche Postings ein."

.....man kann immer dazu lernen, Michael war nun mal aus den USA.