29.11. Verkündung des Strafmaßes - Diskussion

[cyplone]

Naja jeder Mensch hat eine 2te Chance verdient. Manche mit Abstrichen, aber dennoch sind es Menschen und jeder sollte die CHance auf Rehabilitation haben. So und jetzt steinigt mich

[L.O.V.E]

Naja jeder Mensch hat eine 2te Chance verdient. Manche mit Abstrichen, aber dennoch sind es Menschen und jeder sollte die CHance auf Rehabilitation haben. So und jetzt steinigt mich

Ach was wir wissen schon was du meinst

[daggi]

Warum sollten wir Dich steinigen, Du hast nur Deine Meinung geäußert und hast ja ein wenig relativiert. Danke

[jolinar]

jeder hat seine meinung.wir müssen sie nicht verstehen,aber wir müssen sie akzeptieren.und das fällt vielen menschen leider nicht leicht.deswegen kommt es ständig durch dumme auseinandersetzungen.das muss nicht sein.

[cyplone]

Ach was wir wissen schon was du meinst

Haha Ich könnte es noch ellenlang ausführen, aber das würde im Kern nichts ändern

Warum sollten wir Dich steinigen, Du hast nur Deine Meinung geäußert und hast ja ein wenig relativiert. Danke

Ja es ist nur eine Meinung, mehr nicht. Aber ich kann natürlich jeden anderen Verstehen, der hier anders Argumentiert

[p.anh]

Was für attraktive Staatsanwälte, man o man, die sehen aus wie Filmstars oder so

außer der man in der mitte...

[L.O.V.E]

Bei der Pressekonferenz greifen sie nochmal die Iphone Geschichte auf. Der Richter hat das aufgeführt, um Murrays Charakter aufzuzeigen.

[Biggi25]

Verfolgt jemand die Pressekonferenz???

[Lena]

Hier eine Zusammenfassung von bouee MJJC

Gourjian :

does not want cameras in the court room for sentencing for privacy reasons : they are going to get into Murray's privacy
Judge Pastor asks about documentary, how does that square in that position ?
Gourjian : caracter letters, certain aspects in CM's life , childhood, that were not in the doc
Judge : it would be in public record

Judge's decision : request is denied. There is an interest worldwide .

Judge asks Chernoff:if there is a legal cause for sentence not to be pronounced today. Chernoff says he received info from prosecution today about case law, about caracterisation of IM as a serious felony., which would allow for state prison.

Judge Pastor said he got it from prosection at 8.12, and is not happy about it

Walgren : describes the cases, it's about realignment . Serious felony would be state prison
Judge Pastor said realignement came after, so the prosection's case law can not be used.
missed a whole part of this because my inernet connection froze.

Walgren : Jackson family will have a representative read a statement from the whole family

Mr Brian Panish reads the Jackson's family statement : «*there's no way to describe the loss. As michael's parents we would never have expected to go through this. Brothers and sisters will not be able to hug him, laugh with him, perform with him. The children lost their father. ./...
We want no revenge. We will keep the love in our hearts. His passion was to unite the world with his music. We want a clear message sent to certain doctors*»

Walgren :

propofol shipments began in april. Careless behavior for at leat 2 months. On june 25th, CM administerd propofol , left MJ heavily sedated. MJ died, leaving his kids without a father. Talks about cleaning up the crime scene , lying to the ER and paramedics. Cites the documentary , and Cm not mentionning the phone calls because the police didn't ask.
Katherine Jackson said in the probation report CM didn't tell her anything at all, CM did not console her.
Vulnerability of the victim : Mj expected CM to by his side , CM created Mj's vulnerability .
Propofol was in the home because CM brought it there, he didn't have the appropriate medical equipment to give propofol.
No medical records, told the pharmacist it was for a clinic : CM knew hat he was doing was wrong.
Trust & doctor-patient relationship : grossly corrupted by CM , destroyed by CM. MJ trusted he was monitored and cared for.
CM was playig russian roulette every single night with MJ's life.

CM says he walked in on the situation, but prop shipments started in april, when he accepted the job.
CM knew he had done something wrong , he started looking out for himself. Cleaned up the room, waited 20mn to call 911, lied, didn't answer the family's questions. Comes forward 2 days later with the propofol when he talks to the police.
CM was on the phone talking to his GF when MJ died or was dying. Highlights the priorities of CM at that time. Instead of being focused on MJ, he was focused on his personal life.


Vulnerability of MJ : not only at that moment on june 25th , but the vulnerability was exarcebated by CM during these 2 months.

Propofol shimpent, lies, lack of medical records : he knew he was risking MJ's life. Took advantage of his posoition trust.
Walgren repeats what MJ said, according to nurse Lee «*As long as i'm monitored, I'll be safe*».
It's not only the act of june 25th, it's the repeated negligence . It was not one solitary mistake of judgement.

Restitution :
100 million for the 50 shows, that would have benefitted the children. Conservative amount, because there could have been more earnings (more shows, records, etc..)+ funeral costs

lack of remorse : cites CM's own words from the doc, reportedly 9 days before the verdict. CM says «*I dont feel gulty because I didn't do anything wrong*». he chose not to testify , but he chose to say that.

KJ's statement in the probation report : «*all the family members feel angry and betrayed, they think about MJ everyday, my first thought in the morning is for MJ. Mj was his kids' world, their world collapsed. Paris said «*I want to go with you*». MJ planned on producing films with his kids. The family felt betrayed when Cm took pictures at the cemetary on 1st year anniversary.

Asks for a sentence of 4 years in state prison.

Walgren : Cm would be housed in county jail , Judge woudn't have authority on that.

Judge Pastor asked for an itemisation of the amount , Walgren says he doesn't have it. Agrees the defense is entitled to the itemisation.

Defense :

CM has the right to speak. CM doesn't want to speak.

Chernoff : has 35 letters of recommendation and support. Agrees it's a tragedy, the loss demands punishment. Says the judge needs to consider CM's whole book of life, not one chapter. Cm shouldn't have done it. Mj was a drug seeker, soughit out from CM, and he shoudn't have agreed, and from other doctors. MJ was powerful, was wealthy , had lawyers, security, staff...
CM has to be in protective custody. He was 56 in 2009, never comitted a crime, raised a family. Has a 2.5 years old son. Understands the tragedy for MJ's kids. CM Was born in Granada, was very poor, from an illegimate father, didn't know his father. Went to the US, graduated in 3 years, unsupported , went to medical school. CM is a doctor. All of this is gone, it's CM's fault. He's no longer a doctor, he's the man who killed MJ. Gave back to a community, helped train doctors in the Caribbean, brought them material they couldn't afford, helped the community.
His whole life should be considered . On probation, could do things for the community. Punishment is not a revenge.

Judge Pastor asks Chernoff about restitution : Chernoff says the figure is so high, doesn't know what to say. CM will never be able to pay that amount. Chernoff needs receipts.

Judge Pastor :

CM didn't intend MJ to die. CM is a human being,not a saint , not the devil. He is convicted of death of an other human being, predicated on criminal or gross negligence. The jury agreed on that. It wasn't medical malpractice.
Criminal nigligence : more than ordinary carelessness, ordinary lack of judgement. Creats high risk of death, a normal person would have known that acting that way would have caused a high risk.
Acts that amount to disregard to human life.

Some people feel that «*if it wasn't CM, would have been someone else*».Judge Pastor says it's an insult to medical profession. It's not about MJ.

Has read the book of CM's life, has read the book of MJ's life too.

MJ died because of a totality of circumstances , because of a series of decisions Cm made. Horrific medical actions. Violated for money, fame, prestige. CM engaged in a recurring pattern of deceit, lies, to assit CM. It's inconceivable that CM persisted in that . The lies , the deceit continued. Lies to the pharmacist, shows intentional deception. Lies to those associated with MJ. Lies to MJ's staff, unconscionable lies to health care providers, not designed to help MJ, but to help CM . Cover up, lies to law enforcement.

CM showed long standing failure of character in terms of serving his patient.

Judge pastor talks about the recording : MJ was recorded by his trusted doctor : why ? That tape was Cm's insurance policy. It was designed to record his patient in a vulnerable state. Horrific violation of trust. What would have been the value of that recording if it was sold to the media. Betrayed the oath of his profession.

Speaks of the doc CM «*I don't feel guilty*» . «*i wasn't reckless*». Cm says he feels betrayed and entrapped by MJ. Judge Pastor «*Yikes , talk about blaming the victim*».

CM is legally eligible for probation, but why give probation to someone who is offended by being in court ? Probabtion requires that the person takes some responsability.

Mj was vulnerable because CM put him in that position.

CM abandonned his patient , it's not a single mistake. It's a gross maintained deviation.

The request for probation is denied.

The court does not have the legal authority to send CM to sate prison.

Sentence is 4 years in LA county jail : CM abadonned his vulnerable patient who trusted him, acted during a long period of time, lied, cover up, violated the trust of the medical community and his patient, has absolutely no sense of remorse , is and still is dangerous. Cm is offended by his patient dying. CM so reckless , his subsequent behavior shows he is danger to the public.
Experimental medicine is not going to be tolerated, CM could have walked away. CM engaged in medecine for money.

4 years in the LA county jail

800 restitution fine.
30 court security fee
40 criminal convition assessment

as a convicted felon, he has to give blood & saliva samples, palm and fingerprints.

Appropriate restitution to the estate, family and Mj's kids, amount determined at a later hearing, with more detailed information.

Sentence is 4 years – 23 days already served, - 23 days for good behavior.

Restitution hearing will be on 23rd january, 8.30 am, CM will not be there.

[isoon]

Bei der Pressekonferenz greifen sie nochmal die Iphone Geschichte auf. Der Richter hat das aufgeführt, um Murrays Charakter aufzuzeigen.

und was sagten sie darüber ???

[Biggi25]

Ich hab nur einmal eine Reaktion in CM Gesicht gesehen, als der Richter ihn als gefährlich bezeichnete. Ansonsten hätte dort auch eine Statue sitzen können, es wäre nicht aufgefallen!!!

[L.O.V.E]

und was sagten sie darüber ???

Reporter haben danach nochmal gefragt, und daraufhin hat Walgren gesagt, dass man damit Murrays Charakter erkennt. Denn wofür hat er das aufgenommen?! Wie der Richter schon gesagt hat, es war eine Art Versicherung für Murray (was wir ja auch schon hier im Forum diverse Male diskutiert haben ;-)) Er hätte MJ damit erpressen können, das war nur eins von vielen Beispielen, die Murrays Charakter gezeigt haben. So was macht man nicht als vertrauter Arzt, das war ein totales No go, ein absoluter Vetrauensbruch.

[pacara78]

Höchstwahrscheinlich ist das jetzt eine doofe Frage und wird irgendwo auf den 18 Seiten vorher beantwortet, aber kann mir trotzdem jemand ganz kurz anreißen, was Murray als Versicherung aufgezeichnet hat?

[Lena]

Bei der Pressekonferenz greifen sie nochmal die Iphone Geschichte auf. Der Richter hat das aufgeführt, um Murrays Charakter aufzuzeigen.

Der Richter hat ja gesagt das er dieses Band als schreckliches Zeugnis sieht wie Murray die verletzliche Situation und das Vertrauen von MJ ausnutzte. Pastor fragte sich. Warum machte er dies? Welchen Wert hat dieses Band für die Medien? Er kann sich nichts anderes vorstellen, dass Murray das Band als Lebensversicherung nutzte mit der Absicht (wenn später mal Probleme mit MJ) an die Medien zu verkaufen.

Walgran stimmte auf der PK mit der Einschätzung des Richtes überein.

[Hippolytos]

Naja jeder Mensch hat eine 2te Chance verdient. Manche mit Abstrichen, aber dennoch sind es Menschen und jeder sollte die CHance auf Rehabilitation haben. So und jetzt steinigt mich

Ich würde jetzt "zweite Chance" so beschreiben:

Dass ich selbst gefühlsmäßig Murray nie wieder auf einen Patienten loslassen würde, ist völlig unerheblich, denn die Dauer setzt nicht Hippolytos fest, sondern die Aufsichtsbehörde für Mediziner. Sie vergibt die Lizenz zum Praktizieren und sie darf sie auch wieder einzihen, befristet oder unbefristet....

Zweite Chance meint, dass Murray das Recht haben muss, nach Verbüßung seiner Haftstrafe am Leben und am Lebensprozess teilnehmen zu können.
Murray ist nicht zum Tode verurteilt!; nimmt man ihm aber jede Grundlage für die Teilnahme am Leben (inclusive zu arbeiten, es muß ja nicht als Arzt sein....) dann ist das nichts anderes, als würde er zwar lebendig bleiben aber würde dennoch nicht am Leben teilnehmen können.

Aus diesem Grunde ist die Entschädigungsforderung von 100 Millionen Dollar auch unmenschlich nach meiner Meinung.

Wäre ich an Stelle des Richters, so würde ich einen Prozentsatz zwischen 5 und 10% festsetzen, den Murray nach Ablauf der Haftstrafe und Beginn eines Einkommens durch Arbeit jeden Monat zu bezahlen hätte....
und zwar WEDER an Michaels Kinder noch Michaels Eltern, SONDERN an eine Hilfsorganisation, die sich um die Nachkommen von Opfern von Gewaltverbrechen kümmert! Ohne zeitliche Begrenzung!

Dieser 5-bis10%-Satz lässt es zu, dass Murray seinen Unterhaltskosten für die 7 Kinder nachkommen kann und es sollte soviel für sein eigenes leben übrig bleiben, dass er menschenwürdig leben kann, und zwar nicht nur satt zu essen hat, sondern auch Geld übrig behält für kulturelle Veranstaltungen usw.

Das verstehe ich unter 2. Chance.