Fall Murray/MJ - Anklage Fahrlässig od. Tötung?

[BlaueBlume]

Wir müssen abwarten und hoffen das die Wahrheit ans Licht kommt !

Kleiner Tipp dazu:
http://forum.mjackson.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9553

Der italienische Fanclub "MJJ Fanclub" hat eine Petition ins Leben gerufen, damit im US Kongress ein Antrag gestellt werden kann, um alle Lügner, die wegen Geldgier und Macht gelogen und betrogen haben, nur um Michael Jackson zu schaden, die Wahrheit sagen. Die Täter sollen vor Gericht gestellt werden oder in der Öffentlichkeit die Wahrheit darstellen.

[Donna]

Hier noch was zur Info über die angebliche Menge an Medikamten, die Conrad Murray Michael gegeben haben soll:

Quelle LA Times

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...perts-say.html

L.A. Now
Southern California -- this just in

« Previous Post | L.A. Now Home | Next Post »
Drug amounts in Michael Jackson death probe don't add up, medical experts say
August 26, 2009 | 1:12 pm

Michael Jackson

If Michael Jackson died from lethal levels of the powerful anesthetic propofol, then his personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, would have had to inject much more of the drug than he reportedly told police, medical experts said.

That opinion is based on court records unsealed in Houston on Monday in which Los Angeles police detectives recount Murray's statement, taken in a three-hour interview two days after the pop star's death.

According to the records, Murray told them that he had been giving Jackson 50 milligrams of propofol each night over a six-week period. Murray told police that he had been trying to wean Jackson off the powerful anesthetic and, on the night of his death, gave him a combination of other sedatives -- until finally succumbing to Jackson's repeated demands for propofol.

According to the documents, Murray then gave Jackson 25 milligrams of propofol. But those amounts -- 25 and 50 milligrams -- are far below the dosage required to anesthesize someone and keep them asleep, several experts said.

"It doesn't make any sense," said Dr. John Dombrowski, a member of the American Society of Anesthesiologists. "I cannot believe that was the number that was given. Such a small amount won't tip anyone over in terms of respiratory depression. ... If that's what his testimony is, I don't believe it."

What's more likely, Dombrowski said, is that the numbers in the documents are somehow in error. Murray might not have provided an infusion rate -- such as 25 milligrams every few minutes -- or police did not understand the medical terminology. If the amount of propofol is higher, combined with the other medications, Dombrowski said, then "you are going to start to see an overdose."

The preliminary toxicology reports cited in the court records said that "lethal levels" of propofol were found in Jackson's blood, a finding that sources familiar with the investigation maintain was a significant factor in the pop star's death.

Murray has maintained that he believes nothing he administered Jackson should have led to his death and said through his attorney that he answered the questions posed by detectives truthfully. In a YouTube video posted recently, Murray thanked his supporters and said, "I have done all I could do. I told the truth, and I have faith the truth will prevail."

-- Kimi Yoshino

Photo: Conrad Murray. Credit: Getty Images

[Picollina]

Debbie Rowe soll Klein jetzt bei LAPD abgeschwärzt haben? Na, das wäre doch mal was, wenn das stimmt. Aber dann würde sich halt, mal wieder, die Frage stellen, wieso sie das nicht schon wesentlich früher gemacht hat, wenn sie doch wusste, dass Klein Michael sozusagen zur Sucht gebracht hat. Vor allen Dingen will da mal wieder ein Insider was wissen. Da muss man also wieder enorm vorsichtig sein, ob man das glaubt, oder ob man das nicht glaubt.

Wenn es aber stimmt, dann bleibt eben die Frage, wieso sie erst jetzt den Mund auf macht. Wenn jemand von den illegalen Machenschaften in Kleins Praxis wissen kann, dann tatsächlich sie, wo sie doch so lange für den gearbeitet hat. Also möglich wäre es durchaus, dass sie da mehr weiß als jeder andere. Aber wenn sie ihn für Michaels Sucht verantwortlich macht, wieso hat sie Klein nicht schon lange ans Messer geliefert? Das hätte sie doch schnell machen können.

So ganz glaube ich diesem Bericht aber, wenn ich ehrlich sein soll, noch nicht. Wieso sollte Debbie Rowe anonym bei der Polizei anrufen? Das ergibt (wie vieles in diesem Fall) mal so überhaupt keinen Sinn.

Tja gute Frage.....

Ich denke mal, dass es eine blöde Situation für sie war. Falls sie von Michaels Medisucht wusste, ist es natürlich auch eine Frage des Vertrauens. Ich denke, es spielen soviele Faktoren eine Rolle, warum man sich selbst gezwungen fühlt nicht zu "verraten".

[Donna]

Wahington Post 25.August 2009

Expertenrunde betreffend fahrlässiger Tötung bzw. Mord:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082402471.html

Michael Jackson Dies From Lethal Dose of Propofol

Powerful Anesthetic Administered by Dr. Conrad Murray

Lawrence Kobilinsky
Forensic Scientist and Chairman, Dept. of Sciences, John Jay College of Criminal Justice
Tuesday, August 25, 2009; 1:00 PM

Michael Jackson died in his rented mansion June 25 from a deadly dose of the powerful anesthetic drug propofol, according to an affidavit unsealed Monday. The Los Angeles coroner made that assessment after reviewing preliminary toxicology results from Jackson's autopsy, according to the search warrant affidavit given by police Detective Orlando Martinez.

Lawrence Kobilinsky, a forensic scientist and chairman of the Dept. of Sciences at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, was online Tuesday, Aug. 25, at 1 p.m. ET to discuss the report and explain what the findings may further indicate.
____________________
Washington, D.C.: According to Dr. Murray, he administered 25 mg of propofol to Michael Jackson. The coroner has determined that Jackson died from a lethal dose of propofol. Is 25 mg a lethal dose if administered in the proper conditions.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The dosage administered by Dr. Murray (if accurate) is far below a lethal dose. It is the combination of Propofil and the other benzodiazepines that resulted in death due to respiratory failure and cardiac arythmia resulting in cardiac arrest.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: Every anesthesiologist I've ever spoken to has told me that you just don't screw around with Propofol without oxygen and assisted breathing. Even then, most will not go anywhere near it except in the context of an operating room. The fact that a cardiologist without proper training even ventured into this territory tells me that someone is going to prison.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Propofol is a very commonly used anesthetic and if administered by a trained physician anestesiologist does a fantastic job. It has its effect manifested quickly and upon cessation of administration, the patient wakens with virtually no side effects. This is not a drug to be administered in a home setting. When it is used, the patient must be constantly monitored and there must be equipment available to resuscitate the patient if he/she begins to go downhill.
_______________________
Germantown, Md.: I wonder how realistic it is to press criminal charges in a case where a patient demanded the drugs. Certainly there are medical ethics questions, and I can easily envision a wrongful death suit, but homicide?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: A person has died. The question is: Did the patient die as a result of "bad judgement" on the part of the physician. There is a line between malpractice and criminal behaviour. The question is whether or not the charge will be manslaughter and if so, then to what degree. Ethics is certainly part of the issue. The oath that every physician takes is "to do no harm." Mr. Jackson's death was certainly a harm that cannot be reversed. Did the doctor intend to kill Michael Jackson? Of course not. But...he should have realized that administering so many CNS depressing drugs was dangerous to say the least. Bad judgement can kill.


_______________________
Washington, D.C.: If Michael Jackson had been taking all of the drugs found in his system for years how can the doctor be charged with homicide?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Because, whatever Michael Jackson took in the past is almost irrelevant to the present case. The Doctor will certainly argue that Mr. Jackson was addicted to a host of drugs including propofol and that he was trying to wean him off of these drugs while at the same time helping him deal with his horrible insomnia. Jackson was obtaining all types of prescription drugs (Schedule IV) from a number of physicians. In a sense they all share in the problem of caving in to the request of a very wealthy but needy celebrity
_______________________
Chattanooga, Tenn.: I've heard the coroner ruled MJ's death a homicide. What exactly does that mean?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The medical examiner is charged with finding the cause and manner of death. Cause of death is a medical explanation for what resulted in the death (stroke, severing of an artery by knife, etc). Manner of death has 5 categories:

Homicide, Suicide, Accidental, Natural Causes, Cause unknown (for the time being). Calling the death a homicide does NOT mean that Dr. Murray will be charged with homicide. It does mean that the death was criminal and somebody must be charged as a result.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: In such a case, where a patient needs such heavy medication to sleep, shouldn't the doctor be trying to find out the cause rather than medicate so heavily? And...what could have been the cause of this severe insomnia?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Insomnia is a terrible condition and affects millions of people in this country. Typically, physicians will prescribe a drug in a class called benzodiazepines. Each of these has a number of effects on the patient: 1. sedatiion; 2. Muscle relaxant; 3. relieves anxiety 4. Anticonvulsant; 5. Amnesic. Each by itself in the right dosage will not harm a normal individual. Patients with respiratory issues can be seriously effected by any of these drugs and they should be avoided. Assuming that Jackson had no such problems but suffered only from insomnia, administering one of these drugs makes sense. But not all of these drugs in combination. Michael Jackson was certainly addicted to this class of drugs and because of the fact that his body was accomodated, he required higher dosages to fall asleep. After becoming addicted to these medications, one will have a rebound effect if they are abruptly stopped. Insomnia is what I mean by a rebound effect.
_______________________
Lawrence Kobilinsky: My name is Lawrence Kobilinsky Ph.D. and I am a Professor of Forensic Science and the Chairman of the Department of Sciences at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City. I have been asked to discuss a number of cases wherein a celebrity has died as a result of drug toxicity. I have found that the cause of these deaths is not any one drug but a combination of drugs that act in a similar fashion to depress the central nervous system, to slow respiration and to affect heart rhythm. It is a tragedy that we now have another celebrity fatality due to a combination drug situation.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: Do you think it is plausible that Jackson could have slipped out of consciousness such that he couldn't be resuscitated in the supposed 2 minutes that the doctor was out of the room? Even if the doctor hadn't left the room, do you think that he could have saved Jackson once all of the drugs had been administered?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is a very tough question to answer. There is a point during which CPR and counteracting meds will fail to save a life. Dr. Murray administered CPR and gave Jackson an antagonist (anexate) to counteract the effects of the benzodiazepines. Nothing helped. He made two mistakes:

1. the anesthesiologist should never leave a patient's side when the patient is administered i.v. propofol and 2. he should have called paramedics immediately upon learning that Jackson had respiratory failure. These issues will haunt him when the trial commences.
_______________________
Reston, Va.: What could have caused such severe insomnia?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Jackson was under great pressure and I suspect his mind was racing "a mile a minute." All he could think about is "why can't I fall asleep." His body was accomodated to these drugs and therefore required a higher than normal dosage to have any effect. The propofol was the straw that broke the camel's back. Some people can fall asleep listening to music or by doing breathing exercises, or by drinking milk or by counting sheep. Others request and demand drugs. The physician's responsibility is to treat the patient without making the problem worse. Not an easy task.
_______________________
Newport, R.I.: My God. Dr. Murray should clearly bear the consequences of forsaking the boundaries prescribed by his medical license and the poor professional judgment he has shown and never, ever be permitted to practice again. If he or any other physician can be so easily compromised by the clout of a celebrity and the smell of a stack of greenbacks, he should not be put in such a position of trust again. That said, it is insidious that the Jackson family is crying foul play in a situation where Michael has a well documented history of prescription drug abuse and where Michael apparently insisted on the medications or as he called it, his "milk." It is patently clear that had he not gotten it from Murray, he would have just gone to someone else -- and he apparently has. The sad truth is that this family sees profit in keeping the Michael Jackson tragedy alive.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Your comments are reasonable and logical. I think that Dr. Murray felt (and perhaps still feels) that he did nothing wrong. He was trying to cure the insomnia while at the same time weaning Jackson off of propofol. At some point, he had to make a choice. Should I give him more valium? ativan? versed? or must I provide the propofol. He decided that he had to provide all of these drugs to get the desired effect. Bad decision. Bad result! Michael Jackson got his sleep....... permanently!
_______________________
Anonymous: How important is the timeline in this tragedy? In your opinion could this have been averted if emergency help was called sooner?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: It is hard to say if paramedics could have saved him. Once the heart stops beating, oxygen depletion of the brain follows quickly and the results are irreversible in a matter of minutes. Waiting more than an hour to call 911 was another poor choice of action.
_______________________
Boston, Mass.: Do you think 2nd degree murder charges are possible?
The negligence of this case is crazy; no doctor can get away with this and the other involved should get some kind of punishment also.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: I highly doubt that the charge against Dr. Murray will be murder. The laws are fairly clear as to which charges might apply. Often the D.A. will start with "higher" charges and then as the trial approaches the charges are "lowered." The jury may be given a menu of charges to decide from. We will have to wait to see what the D.A. decides to do. I think the big piece of the puzzle that is missing is the Toxicology Report. What will that say? This is the most important part of the case which we still have not as yet seen.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: So, do you think Dr. Murray will be criminally charged? Even if he isn't convicted, could a separate process bar him from practicing medicine based on his negligence?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: I do thin that Dr. Murray will face criminal charges as well as malpractice charges. There is a good possibility that he will be sanctioned by the medical board and that his license will be suspended. We have to be careful however. He has not been tried. There is no indictment. He is entitled to a defense once he is charged. There may be facts that we still do not know. A person is innocent until convicted by a jury of his peers. The case will continue to be of interest to me and to the rest of the world.
_______________________
Washington, D.C. (not a state yet): Why would a physician not just say no? The crime to me is that Michael Jackson had so many people around him who could be bought off.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: You hit the nail on its head, my friend. A physician should learn how to say no. Of course, that would mean that he could be fired and lose his incredible salary ($150K/month plus expenses). No doubt, othere physicans would be called in and pressured in the same way to provide sleep aiding drugs. The bottom line is that it makes perfect sense to say: I am your physician. What you are asking for could kill you. I will not give you these drugs because I have taken an oath as a physician to do no harm. Sorry!
_______________________
Fairfax, Va.: Jackson had said (supposedly to his then-wife Lisa Marie Presley) that he was afraid he would die the way Elvis did. And it wound up he did. Do you think this internal fear and sort of self-professing philosophy actually contributed to his death?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: It is interesting to make this point in retrospect. However, I think that Michael had everything to live for and was not suicidal. He had only one thought in mind. I need to sleep and I will do anything to cure my insomnia. I have experienced the effects of many drugs in the past and I never was harmed. I pay a small fortune to my personal physician and he has to help me. I know what is best for me. (This is me trying to get into the mind of Michael Jackson). The Doctor should have said NO to his demands for propofol.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: In such a case as severe insomnia, is it better to treat or just look for a cause...it seems that nothing was working except the drug that killed Michael Jackson.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Many people are under great stress in their everyday lives. Sometimes the source of the stress cannot be eliminated or eased. It is important that the body gets sufficient sleep to recover from the daily "assaults" that we all encounter as we live our lives. Sometimes, sleep medication is called for. BUT, it must be administered in the correct amount and not abused. All of these drugs are addicting and physicians need to be alert when prescribing these medications to avoid potential abuse of these drugs.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: If the drug propofol is so dangerous, then how is it possible that any doctor without any anethesia experience able to puchase it so easily.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The answer to your question is that physicians cannot obtain this type of medication from the local pharmacy or from the manufacturer. I suspect that the propofol was obtained 1. from outside of the United States where there are less strict controls on such drugs or 2. from a hospital. I suspect that the DEA and LAPD Narcotics detectives are trying to determine where the propofol came from.
_______________________
Anonymous: What defense is the doctor likely to mount in this case ?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The doctor will argue that he was attempting to solve a medical problem by administering (normal) doses of benzodiazepines and that he was trying to wean his patient off of propofol which he had been getting by i.v. nightly for the past 6 weeks prior to his death. He was trying to respond to the complaint of insomnia through accepted means without propofol. It was only many hours later in the late morning that he realized that Jackson could not sleep when he made the fateful decision to give him a "low" dose of propofol. He administered CPR. He administered anexate to counteract the benzo drugs. He then called for help. He will have a tough uphill defense battle on his hands.
_______________________
Westport, Conn.: Was Jackson's personal MD a trained anaesthesiologist and did he always have the proper equipment, like an intubation kit and AMBU bag so someone else could breathe for Michael if he did become unconscious from this sedation? Can he lose his license for misprescribing this drug as a sleep aid?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: His personal physician is a cardiologist and not an anestesiologist. My understanding is that he did have equipment on hand to resuscitate a patient including oxygen if it was needed. I do not know if he had the kind of equipment that you mention in your question. I suspect that there is a significant chance that he will lose his license as a result of the death of Mr. Jackson. Again, I want to repeat that he has not as yet been charged. There is no indictment. There are no malpractice charges and he is innocent until convicted in a court of law. We will have to wait and see how this all plays out.
_______________________
Anonymous: How much will Jackson's mental health be an issue here? Is the case to be made that this was a very sick man who was trying to medicate away very serious mental illness?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: Whether or not Michael Jackson was in control of his destiny and was in his right mind is not the issue. The doctor was directly responsible for Jackson's well being. If he refused to administer the drugs, perhaps Mr. Jackson would be on his European tour right now.
_______________________
Richmond, Va.: Bravo to the comments from Newport, R.I. Michael Jackson was a drug addict, whose death was no more tragic than than thousands of addicts who die each year from drug overdoses, legal and illegal. As Newport points out, if it hadn't been Dr. Murray it would have been someone else.
It's time we stop lionizing a pedophile and a drug addict.
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The issue for me is that a person who was under the care of a physician has died. Did the doctor have any responsibility for the death. Whether Michael Jackson was a good person or an evil person is not an issue about which I have sufficient knowledge to address.
_______________________
Washington, D.C.: You wrote that Jackson had been receiving propofol by I.V. nightly for the past six weeks prior to his death. Why would the propofol kill him then on this particular day? Or was it the drug interaction that killed him, the combination that Murray gave him?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: The propofol did not kill him. It was the propofol plus the valium plus the ativan plus the versed that killed him. Multiple drugs all effecting the Central Nervous System is a toxic cocktail. The toxicology report will clarify exactly what happened.
_______________________
Lawrence Kobilinsky: I would like to thank you all for your excellent and thoughtful questions. There is much that we still do not know. On July 4th, my sister was in a hospital and was administered ativan despite the fact that she had respiratory problems. She died as a result of the administration of this drug. They refer to this as iatrogenic meaning that death was not due to natural causes but rather, the doctor, made a bad decision. We have to stop doctors from making bad choices. Doctors are trained to help patients and not hurt them. On that note, I must depart. Thanks again for your wonderful questions. Lawrence Kobilinsky

[Marywell]

Washington, D.C.: Do you think it is plausible that Jackson could have slipped out of consciousness such that he couldn't be resuscitated in the supposed 2 minutes that the doctor was out of the room? Even if the doctor hadn't left the room, do you think that he could have saved Jackson once all of the drugs had been administered?
Lawrence Kobilinsky: This is a very tough question to answer. There is a point during which CPR and counteracting meds will fail to save a life. Dr. Murray administered CPR and gave Jackson an antagonist (anexate) to counteract the effects of the benzodiazepines. Nothing helped. He made two mistakes:

1. the anesthesiologist should never leave a patient's side when the patient is administered i.v. propofol and 2. he should have called paramedics immediately upon learning that Jackson had respiratory failure. These issues will haunt him when the trial commences.

Fairfax, Va.: Jackson had said (supposedly to his then-wife Lisa Marie Presley) that he was afraid he would die the way Elvis did. And it wound up he did. Do you think this internal fear and sort of self-professing philosophy actually contributed to his death?

Lawrence Kobilinsky: It is interesting to make this point in retrospect. However, I think that Michael had everything to live for and was not suicidal. He had only one thought in mind. I need to sleep and I will do anything to cure my insomnia. I have experienced the effects of many drugs in the past and I never was harmed. I pay a small fortune to my personal physician and he has to help me. I know what is best for me. (This is me trying to get into the mind of Michael Jackson). The Doctor should have said NO to his demands for propofol.

Lawrence Kobilinsky: Whether or not Michael Jackson was in control of his destiny and was in his right mind is not the issue. The doctor was directly responsible for Jackson's well being. If he refused to administer the drugs, perhaps Mr. Jackson would be on his European tour right now.

Washington, D.C.: You wrote that Jackson had been receiving propofol by I.V. nightly for the past six weeks prior to his death. Why would the propofol kill him then on this particular day? Or was it the drug interaction that killed him, the combination that Murray gave him?

Lawrence Kobilinsky: The propofol did not kill him. It was the propofol plus the valium plus the ativan plus the versed that killed him. Multiple drugs all effecting the Central Nervous System is a toxic cocktail. The toxicology report will clarify exactly what happened.


puh, das sind für mich die highlights des live chats.

nix neues eigentlich, außer, dass hier eher vermutet wird, dass die kombination der tabletten (mit propofol), aber nicht das propofol allein die todesursache gewesen sein könnte.

puh, das zieht einen wieder runter.

[Mrs. Järvis]

Lawrence Kobilinsky: It is interesting to make this point in retrospect. However, I think that Michael had everything to live for and was not suicidal. He had only one thought in mind. I need to sleep and I will do anything to cure my insomnia. I have experienced the effects of many drugs in the past and I never was harmed. I pay a small fortune to my personal physician and he has to help me. I know what is best for me. (This is me trying to get into the mind of Michael Jackson). The Doctor should have said NO to his demands for propofol.

Lawrence Kobilinsky: Whether or not Michael Jackson was in control of his destiny and was in his right mind is not the issue. The doctor was directly responsible for Jackson's well being. If he refused to administer the drugs, perhaps Mr. Jackson would be on his European tour right now.

Amen!
Das ist wohl exakt, was viele hier denken.

Aber das mit den Medikamenten ist auch nicht neu für mich. Mir kam das schon die ganze Zeit spanisch vor, dass Murray Michael mit den ganzen Medikamenten vollgepumpt haben soll und das aber überhaupt nichts gemacht haben soll, sondern nur die 25 mg Propofol an seinem Tod schuld waren. Das konnte ich mir von Anfang an nicht vorstellen, zumal das alles keine leichten Medikamente waren, die Murray Michael da reingepfiffen hat. Eines dieser Medikamente hätte in geringer Konzentration vielleicht nicht lebensbedrohlich gewirkt. Aber man muss bedenken, dass diese Medikamenten nicht nach zwei Stunden wieder aus dem Blut verschwinden. Die Halbwertszeit von Valium sind 48-60 Stunden. Und dann ist das Zeug auch noch nicht ganz weg. Und Murray hat Michael mit dem Zeug fast im Stundentakt versorgt. Das kann ja nur schief gehen, sowas.

[Marywell]

nun, es wird zeit, dass eine sonderbehandlung von ärzten AUFHÖRT!

denn hier in diesem fall verschwimmen die grenzen zwischen fahrlässiger tötung und mord derart subtil, dass es - für mich - zu keiner anderen schlussfolgerung kommen kann als:

es war so beabsichtigt.

warum?

das gilt es für die ermittler und die detektive (und vielleicht den einen oder anderen furchtlosen und engagierten reporter)

rauszufinden.

[Mrs. Järvis]

Ja also wenn das alles so der Wahrheit entspricht, dann ist es schon sehr schwer, da noch von fahrlässiger Tötung zu sprechen. Davon scheint man ja ohnehin schon nicht mehr auszugehen, da ja scheinbar zumindest mal wegen Totschlags gegen Murray ermittelt wird. Es musste ja irgendwann mal schief gehen, bei dem Medikamentenmix.

Nur muss man halt sehen, dass das Gesetz halt zumindest in Deutschland sagt, es muss ein Mordmerkmal gegeben sein und es muss tatsächlich auch Absicht sein. Nun bleibt halt die Frage, ob Murray Michael wirklich absichtlich umgebracht hat und wenn ja, was hat er dann davon? Die Ermittlungen werden sicher noch andauern und wenn Murray Michael wirklich ermordet hätte, dann käme das möglicherweise noch ans Licht. Und wenn sie ihn wegen Mord dran kriegen, dann fährt er sehr sehr lange ein.

Ich bin immernoch vorsichtig, da von Mord zu sprechen. Solange kein eindeutiges Tatmotiv geboten wird, sowieso. Bisher habe ich noch nichts gelesen, was mich davon überzeugen würde, dass es ein Mord gewesen sein könnte. Also von den Gründen her. Ich schließe es natürlich nicht aus, aber wenn er wegen Totschlags dran ist, dann kommt er auch ein paar Jahre weg vom Fenster. Und das hat er wahrlich verdient. Was da getrieben wurde, ist der absolute Oberhammer und kaum zu glauben. Wenn ich das nicht selbst erleben würde, ich würde es nicht glauben. Ehrlich nicht.

[Marywell]

Ich bin immernoch vorsichtig, da von Mord zu sprechen. Solange kein eindeutiges Tatmotiv geboten wird, sowieso. Bisher habe ich noch nichts gelesen, was mich davon überzeugen würde, dass es ein Mord gewesen sein könnte. Also von den Gründen her. Ich schließe es natürlich nicht aus, aber wenn er wegen Totschlags dran ist, dann kommt er auch ein paar Jahre weg vom Fenster. Und das hat er wahrlich verdient. Was da getrieben wurde, ist der absolute Oberhammer und kaum zu glauben. Wenn ich das nicht selbst erleben würde, ich würde es nicht glauben. Ehrlich nicht.

ja, natürlich: das überzeugende motiv fehlt. und das ist vermutlich bei Murray nicht zu finden.

aber ALLES deutet darauf hin , dass es eben aussehen soll wie eine versehentliche überdosierung - gegeben, weil Mr. Jackson ja "eh ständig high war".

im Mrs. Marple thread hat es schon sehr gute ansätze gegeben.

bisher war ich überhaupt nicht so überzeugt von irgendwelchen "mordtheorien" - bis zu diesem pikanten "fall".

es läßt mich nicht los.

kennt nicht jemand ein gutes medium (zum "hellsehen")???

[orena23]

Das ist eine sehr krasse Sache. Die Hintergründe werden verschleiert, Michael wird alles in die Schuhe geschoben was nur geht, alles wird benutzt um zu vertuschen.
Die Ponzen dahinter wiegen sich in Sicherheit, Murray der erbärmliche Handlanger.
Es wäre mir lieber wäre es nicht so, aber ich sehe auch kein Versehen von Murray sondern eher eine Absicht. Es gibt zuviele Ungereimtheiten besser HInweise, die kaum eine andere Schlußfolgerung zuläßt.

[The Passenger]

Lawrence Kobilinsky: Whether or not Michael Jackson was in control of his destiny and was in his right mind is not the issue. The doctor was directly responsible for Jackson's well being. If he refused to administer the drugs, perhaps Mr. Jackson would be on his European tour right now.

Das wäre er zum Zeitpunkt der Expertenrunde mit Sicherheit nicht mehr gewesen, wenn er diese European tour (schon diese Formulierung zeigt, daß Kobilinsky keine Ahnung hatte) jemals angetreten hätte. Wer so redet wie Kobilinsky, der nützt nur denen, die ein Interesse daran haben, daß Murray als vermeintlicher Alleinverantwortlicher hinter Schloß & Riegel kommt und für all das büßen muß, was war, bevor er MJs Leibarzt wurde.

Allmählich bin ich es wirklich leid, daß es immer noch Leute gibt, die nicht wahrhaben wollen, in welch desolatem physischen und psychischen Zustand sich MJ befand, schon während seiner Londoner Pressekonferenz. Und dies schreibe ich 15 Stunden nach der Beerdigung eines Szenehelden aus meiner Stadt, der sich vor zwei Wochen unter einen Zug geworfen hat. Keiner seiner sog. Freunde & Fans (und davon gab es viele!) hatte gemerkt, daß dieser (drogenfreie!) Mann unter schweren Depressionen und Panikattacken litt. Alle hatten ihn für jenen Optimisten gehalten, den er ihnen täglich vorspielte, weil er, wie der Pastor gestern sagte, ein Narr in Christus war, ein Weltverbesserer, an dessen Stärke alle glaubten. Pustekuchen. Schon vor Monaten war er am Ende seiner Kräfte, und es war ihm anzusehen, wenn er durch mein Viertel schlich und sich unbeobachtet glaubte. Doch keiner hat es sehen wollen; zumindest keiner, mit dem ich bis jetzt darüber gesprochen habe. Alle waren völlig überrascht. Und nuu isser tot, und ich dachte während der Trauerfeier und danach fast ununterbrochen auch an MJ, dessen Tod dazu beigetragen haben dürfte, daß auch der Szeneheld aus meiner Stadt, ein ganz frommer Mann, wie der Pastor sagte, seinen Lebensmut verloren hat, kurz vor seinem nächsten großen öffentlichen Auftritt, und der wäre am 30. August gewesen.

Ja, so geht das im wirklich wahren Leben zu, und solche Geschichten sind im Prinzip immer wieder die gleichen, ob in Metropolen wie Los Angeles oder hier in der Provinz. Schon in den Evangelien wird ja berichtet, daß Jesus allein in Gethsemane wachte und seinem Tode entgegensah, während seine Jünger schliefen.

[Shania]

Was behaupte ich: Dass wir NICHTS wissen?

Wieso erwartest du von mir, Beweise und Antworten präsentieren zu können? - Natürlich fragt man sich u. versucht man die Antworten zu finden. Das ist normal. Aber niemand wird dir hier eine Antwort bzw. Beweise aufm Tablett servieren.



WENN die Sache mit Murrays Verhaltensweise stimmt, ist das ein klarer Mord.
Jackson wurde am Todestag wie das letzte Schw* mit allen mögl. Medikamenten vollgespritzt und vollgestopft: Wieso wundert man sich, dass er nicht am Leben blieb? - Und seit wann gilt dieses Verhalten des Arztes nicht als Mord, die tödliche Dosis an Barbituraten bewusst zu verabreichen?

Vor der ganzen Welt wurde einer der bekanntesten Menschen mit der schwersten Medikamentenkombination tödlich vergiftet.

Und man meint, es wäre kein Mord?

Dass Murray kurz vorher von der AEG für MJ angestellt wurde, wirft auch den Schatten, nämlich deshalb, dass das offensichtlich danach aussieht, dass er die Drecksarbeit übernehmen musste.

Ich sage nicht. "Es IST so". Denn hier geht man die ganze Zeit lediglich von den unglaubhaften Berichten u. wiedersprüchlichen Aussagen aus: Mehr haben wir nicht.

Ich erwarte von dir Beweise, weil du immer weider schreibst, dass es Mord war. Du vermutest nicht, du stellst fest, auch in diesem Beitrag wieder. Deshalb frage ich nach Beweisen. Du schreibt immer wieder, dass es niemand glauben will, wahrhaben will, usw. Liefer mir Beweise, dann glaube ich es.

Solange Vermutungen kursieren, erwäge ich das eine oder auch das andere, obwohl Mord für mich immer noch keinen Sinn macht, aber das hatten wir alles schon. Und ja, du schreibst sehr oft "Es ist so". Lies dir deine Beiträge doch durch.

[missionX]

Ich frage mich auch, wie man sich angesichts der ganzen Tatsachen noch auf einen Mord berufen möchte...............als wenn es so völlig unglaubwürdig sei, als sei er einfach Opfer seiner Sucht geworden.............er ist doch auch kein Unikat damit, das geht doch in seiner Branche ganz vielen so...............und ich meine, wie er aussah, ohne das jetzt negativ zu meinen, er sah schon bei der Pressekonferenz aus wie ein Junkie...............nur da hat irgendwie keiner an irgendnen Medikamentenmissbrauch gedacht................

Es ist doch ziemlich klar, dass es nur noch eine Frage der Zeit war, wanns soweit ist............spätestens während der Konzerte wäre was Schlimmes passiert................wenn er die Tour überhaupt angetreten hätte...........

allerdings seh ich den Murray gespalten, auf der einen Seite kann ich ihn verstehen..........auf der anderen Seite, spätestens beim Propofol hätte er Nein sagen müssen..............egal wie ein MJ bettelt, und egal ob er droht in zu entlassen................denn was nützt ihn nun ein toter MJ? Gar nichts!

Bin da sehr zwiegespalten.............ich glaube nen Approbationsentzug tuts in dem fall einfach auch...........damit isser genug gestraft, denn A. wird er damit so ein stinknormales Leben führen, wie wir auch, er hat nämlich kein Geld mehr, und sicher nicht mal mehr GEhalt für den Monat Juni bekommen............der hat schulden und sonst nix.............wenn der nicht mehr Arzt sein darf, isser genug gestraft.............außerdem muss er mit dem Tod von MJ auch erstmal klar kommen..............wobei ich denke, dass Ärzte sowas sicher nochmal mit ner gehörigen Portion Abstand betrachten können...........

Vielleicht hat er sich auch nochmal an dem angeblichen Geld, was dort rumlag vergriffen.............könnt ich sogar verstehen.............also wenn ein guter Freund stirbt, würd ich sowas natürlich nicht machen, ist das aber jemand, bei dem ich nur angestellt war, der mir vielleicht gar nicht nahe steht, und wo ich möglicherweise sowieso alles ganz furchtbar fand (anzunehmen, denn das war schon alles ne sehr kranke, unangenehme Situation), dann würd ich da vielelicht auch nicht vor zurückscheuen, da mal die Hand reinzustecken, sofern das keiner nachweisen kann.................It's human nature!

[Briánna]

remember schreibt nicht, dass es mord war, sondern dass man diese möglichkeit nicht aus den augen verlieren sollte
und wenn jeder, der hier schreibt "ganz klar, murray war's alleine" beweise erbringen sollte, wäre das genauso unmöglich, denn wir haben keine, wir haben nur das, was die presse uns (gezielt?) zum fraße vorwirft und daraus bauen wir uns ein bild.
durch die gebetsmühlenartige wiederholung dieser gerüchte ( denn nicht mehr sind es aktuell) wird auch das nicht wahrer, als die these, es könnte mord gewesen sein.
für alles, was wir hier diskutieren, gibt es für's und wider's, pro' und con's.
nichts, aber auch gar nichts, ist gesichert und hieb - und stichfest.
und die möglichkeit, dass hinter der nummer mehr steckt, als ein dämlicher arzt, der nicht wusste, was er tat, besteht immerhin.
remember zeigt nur die widersprüche auf und lässt weitere möglichkeiten offen.
mit genauso viel oder wenig überzeugung, wie jeder hier.
ich persönlich finde es ein bisschen schräg, dass manche hier ihre überzeugung/these/theorie rechtfertigen müssen, andere aber die ihrige als tatsache ungehindert vertreten dürfen
im moment äußert jeder nur gedankenspiele.. und da sollten wir uns gegenseitig genug freiraum lassen. es geht nicht um einen wettstreit, wer am ende recht hat und über andere triumphieren darf. es gibt auch nichts zu gewinnen. weder pokale, noch blumentöpfe, noch ansehen.
und dass die news sich regelmäßig widersprechen und dass fragen offen sind, jenseits der murray-war's-alleine-theorie, ist beim aktuellen stand der (nicht-)informationen unstrittig. immerhin gibt es eine menge profiteure der situation...
remember schreibt, wenn man es wirklich liest, eigentlich sehr offen formuliert und eine menge leute schreiben erheblich eindeutiger ihre meinung unter der flagge "so war's und nicht anders".
"die gedanken sind frei" heißt es so schön - und hier sollte genug raum für alle sein, die fließen zu lassen. gerade weil wir fans sind und das sollte uns einen, nicht entzweien.

[for a better world]

@Passenger - bitte nicht schon wieder die "Selbstmordtheorie" (MJ) - um deinen Freund tut es mir natürlich leid.
@Shania - wenn der Doc MJ all das verabreicht hat, was berichtet wird - kann man das in meinen Augen auch nicht mehr als "fahrlässig" bezeichnen.
@missionX - na, dann werden wir für den Doc halt mal ein Kerzerl anzünden - dass der Gute für das, was er getan hat - keinenfalls - bestraft wird. Kann man deinen Beitrag so interpretieren?